posted 02-05-2000 06:20 AM            

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trojanfoe

posted 02-05-2000 10:29 AM            

Tweakd cgame includes some (small) code optimizations over the default cgame code, as well as a few new cvars that allow you to turn off smoke trails, reduce plasma radius, minimize the expense of explosion effects, etc:

cg_rocketTrail [1/0] - toggles rocket smoke trail (default is 1)
cg_grenadeTrail [1/0] - toggles grenade smoke trail (default is 1)
cg_shotgunSmoke [1/0] - toggles shotgun smoke (default is 1)
cg_plasmaRadius [1-n] - sets the plasma radius (default is 16)
cg_explosionDuration [0.0-n] - scaling factor for explosion times (default is 1.0)
cg_cvarUpdateDelay [0-1000] - interval at which local cvars will be updated (default is 0, meaning no delay)
cg_damageBlend [0/1] - toggles 1st person view player damage feedback (default is 1)

If you are cpu-bound, the following settings may boost your FPS significantly (assuming you've already tweaked the rest of your config):

// tweakd vars
seta cg_rocketTrail 0
seta cg_grenadeTrail 0
seta cg_shotgunSmoke 0
seta cg_plasmaRadius 8
seta cg_explosionDuration 0.1

posted 02-05-2000 01:23 PM            

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trojanfoe

posted 02-05-2000 05:20 PM            

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trojanfoe

posted 02-05-2000 10:23 PM            

bool's mod is almost nothing but cheats (no offense intended)... they are okay if everybody agrees to allow them, but otherwise it is unfair and unsportsmanlike to use them. It is not very different from using Satan's Little Helper.

I don't mean to question bool's motives either; I'm sure he probably just means to use it for the performance boost. But the enhanced visibility does give the user an unfair advantage, and cannot be reproduced with console commands on a fresh, pure installation - ergo, it is cheating. It is just minor cheating, and I'd much rather see people use this than use bots. Also, if everybody on the server agrees this is okay (such as at a lan), then it is not cheating.

posted 02-06-2000 12:06 PM            

I also doubt it's a very effective cheat anyway, as rocket smoke is a nice way of saying "I AM HERE" when fired, and he wouldn't get the message.

Reaper21x, you say "It cannot be done, don't argue with me", well you are simply wrong; check out bool's code. You assumed he mean't via console commands I guess, but why would he ask such a question in an editing forum (I don't think editing skins or maps will help with this, so I guess it's gonna have to be the source code) ?

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trojanfoe

posted 02-06-2000 01:08 PM            

No doubt I'm wasting my time (again), but nonetheless I'll respond to your argument (again), this time sans the sarcasm (for the benefit of others, if nothing else):

1) Your 'formal' definition of cheating has been stated as: "anything you cannot do with console commands on a fresh installation of the game." & "...cannot be reproduced with console commands on a fresh, pure installation - ergo, it is cheating". Frankly, it amazes me that you haven't YET bothered to take the additional 15 seconds of thought necessary to modify your definition so that, at the very least, it has a chance of sounding logical. But my amazement betrays far too much credit on your part. Once again, I point out the [main] weak point in your definition: Per your definition, all third party mods that add cvars/console commands would be considered cheating, since you omitted any attempt at rational qualification.

2) "I assumed that sniper wanted to play Q3 by his owm merits". Pray tell - what is it about turning off smoke effects that would prevent sniper from "playing by his owm merits"? Is there some aspect of cgame that I'm not aware of that turns on "autoplay" when smoke is not displayed?

3) "...they are okay if everybody agrees to allow them, but otherwise it is unfair and unsportsmanlike to use them". I hate to be the one to point out the obvious for you (something that you're no doubt accustomed to), but by playing on a server that has sv_pure off, all players implicitly consent to the use of modified cgames, simply by virtue of connecting to that server. On pure servers this is a non-issue, since the server will either have the alternate cgame qvms (allowing players to use them) or it won't (once again, pointing out the painfully obvious for you).

4) "...not very different from using Satan's Little Helper". Sadly, this is only assertion from your post that I can logically agree with. The simple fact is: these 'cheats' that have surfaced thus far (radar & autofire) don't provide any significant advantage over other [moderately skilled] players on an unpure server (to ids' credit). It is unfortunate that players would try to use these exploits in order to 'win games', but lamers will always exist. The design of the cgame-game interface is such that it will be nearly impossible to create the autoaim bots that we've seen in that past, using only a cgame modification (I may be proven wrong on this point in the future, but having studied the cgame-game interaction points, I'm not overly concerned that I will be). id has provided us with a more much cheat-proof architecture this time around, but yet people like you, in the absence of any real cheats to complain about, instead find it necessary to peddle your own home-spun pseudo game morality to any sheep within hearing range.

The problem of how to classify a cgame feature as a cheat can be solved by asking these questions (my opinion only - not a sermon):
1) Does it fire a weapon for the player?
2) Does it move for the player?
3) Does it aim for the player?
4) Does it provide information for the using player that is not available to other players? Not available in this context is necessarily augmented to include that the cgame mod is not publicly available as well - using radar as an example, although I personally don't use it, you can easily make a compelling argument that it is a 'feature' since it is non-intrusive and publicly available, even though it displaces skill.

If the answer to all of these questions is no with regard to a particular cgame mod, then you will simply sound foolish (imo) in your attempt to classify that cgame as a cheat (as Coriolis capably demonstrates).

Coriolis, I'm curious... I see that you have 1200+ posts on this board. I'm wondering how many of those posts were actually useful to other forum readers, and how many were simply mindless dribble (as have been the majority of your posts that I've come across).

posted 02-06-2000 01:13 PM            

"If you want to turn off rocket trails, you can grab the tweaked cgame that I put togther here

Tweakd cgame includes some (small) code optimizations over the default cgame code, as well as a few new cvars that allow you to turn off smoke trails, reduce plasma radius, minimize the expense of explosion effects, etc:"

BTW, Platinum looks pretty interesting - how's it coming along?

posted 02-06-2000 02:31 PM            

My "formal" definition of cheating is one that I picked from places such as firingsquad, it is not one I invented. My particular phrasing of it may not be the best.

I failed to explicitly say that it is not cheating to use a modified cgame for a mod. I figured that this was so painfully obvious that it did not need mentioning. Apparently, I have to explicitly mention this, or you presume I fail to realize this point.

JUST TO MAKE IT PERFECTLY CLEAR, the implicit context for my "cheating" assertion is that you are wanting to play one of id's games. That is, you wanted to play:
a) FFA
b) TDM
c) 1v1
d) CTF
as they ship with the game and/or are modified in point releases. ALL OF MY CHEATING CLAIMS ASSUME THIS POINT.

If you will note, I admitted several times that turning off rocket trails is a very minor cheat. It gives the player an advantage by removing the "smoke screen" effect that the rocket trail provides. Anybody with the simple spacial skills necessary to play quake3 should be able to watch the rocket and trace it backwards until he/she finds the shooter, so I must disagree with your argument that removing the trails also removes an important visual cue.

I agree that there is some sense to your claim about pure servers. I would like to point out that most of the non-pure servers out there are non-pure because id has not yet released the point release for linux. For example, some of my friends have a linux server that we play on locally, and it has to be nonpure for us to connect to it.

And yes, I know that it is a non-issue on pure servers.

I am going to have to assume that you have only picked out a select few of my posts to judge me from. You also must not read general discussion very much. I would say that about 50% of my posts are helpful or informative, and about 50% are just in fun.

posted 02-06-2000 03:04 PM            

wwf.quake3world.com

And... Coriolis, I made this point in an earlier post:

quote:

---

If you will note, I admitted several times that turning off rocket trails is a very minor cheat. It gives the player an advantage by removing the "smoke screen" effect that the rocket trail provides. Anybody with the simple spacial skills necessary to play quake3 should be able to watch the rocket and trace it backwards until he/she finds the shooter, so I must disagree with your argument that removing the trails also removes an important visual cue.

---

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trojanfoe

posted 02-06-2000 03:16 PM            

1) Removing rocket trails removes an important visual clue. Hmmm. Those of us who used cl_particles 0 in Q2 must've been cheating then. Oh wait, that wasn't cheating because the setting was part of the game, right? What difference does it make if this particular setting is part of the game or not, as long as it's freely available to anyone who wants to use it in order to set their own personal preference (the real issue with regard to the settings added by TweakD)?

2) You are correct. I do not frequent General Discussion, although I did qualify my comment with "...your posts that I've come across".

3) Violating the license agreement. You're joking, right? If you are implying that modifying the game/cgame/ui code and then making the modifications available to the public somehow violates the EULA, then you are even more ignorant than I thought.

4) Academic credentials? Who gives a good goddamn about a piece of paper if you can't think for yourself and form your own, well reasoned opinions.

posted 02-06-2000 03:45 PM            

1) That's exactly what I am saying. Though the smoke trails in Q2 were not quite as obfuscatory as those in Q3. Also, it was almost impossible to pick out a rocket in Q2 without the trails, but is fairly easy to do so in Q3. They are different games; the rules have changed. This should not be surprising.

2) I agree, you did qualify this. I still wanted to defend myself

3) The "violating license agreement" reference was to my earlier complaints about using hacked .exe's, which I believe you were including. There is absolutely nothing wrong with modifying the cgame, game, and ui dlls. I have modified all of these myself.

4) All of my opinions are well-reasoned, and formed based on my experience, my readings, and common sense.

And I would like to point out that I have never attacked your intellect or your character. On the contrary, I have attributed your actions to the best possible motives that I could find. Yet you continue to feel the need to bolster your argument by slandering me with baseless accusations.

posted 02-06-2000 06:15 PM            

Hey, lemme ask you a question, say you increased the speed of fire for a weapon:

quote:

---

1) Does it fire a weapon for the player?
2) Does it move for the player?
3) Does it aim for the player?
4) Does it provide information for the using player that is not available to other players? Not available in this context is necessarily augmented to include that the cgame mod is not publicly available as well - using radar as an example, although I personally don't use it, you can easily make a compelling argument that it is a 'feature' since it is non-intrusive and publicly available, even though it displaces skill.

---

posted 02-06-2000 09:35 PM         

That come under 4.

posted 02-07-2000 03:42 AM         

quote:

---

Does it provide information for the using player that is not available to other players?

---

quote:

---

Removing the fog is similar to radar...

---

Coriolis - I think your comprehension of the English language is a bit suspect. Does the latter not fall under the former ?

pre

posted 02-07-2000 03:57 AM            

But you cant always go after definitions,
Just think of the following:
One player is playing on an Athlon 600 with 256 Megs.
The other has a pentium 233 and 64 megs.
Now the second player is turning smoke off,
because its too slow to play with using a modified cgame.

Now he can play on an acceptable frame rate, while the other player who has already an advantage will still see the smoke trails, cause he has its own cgame?
What is so bad about this, it is just equalizing the advantages of both players...

posted 02-07-2000 07:25 AM            

The point is, the guy who has turned off the smoke has given himself a view of the world that the guys who made the game did not want him to have. No smoke may give him an FPS boost; that's fine, I have no qualms about tweaking the cgame through console variables to boost your fps. If you have to modify the cgame for whatever mod it is, or you have to hack the .exe, then it is cheating.

Let me repeat what I've said half a dozen times, and nobody seems to hear: it is not very bad. It is, in fact, quite minor. It is still a cheat.

pre-

Yes, I know that removing the fog lies under point 4, and thus would not be considered cheating by bool's definition. I thought that this was so obviously cheating that anybody would realize it pointed out the flaw in bool's definition. Apparently, I was wrong.

So let me point out even more things that bool would not consider cheating, but which every league and professional would:
1) giving all players day-glow skins;
2) drawing a glowing bounding box around all players;
3) replacing the invisibility effect with a highly visible effect;
4) HUD timers for each crucial item on the map;
5) drawing an opponent's health over his/her head, like a reward;
6) switching the arrows in TDM so that they point at enemies rather than friends.

I am sure that there are other "cheats" that will pass through bool's definition, but these are the ones that quickly came to the top of my head.